Sam: Hi! This is Samuel Cook. Welcome to Search Engine Watch and a new feature that we’re running a Search Engine called The Google Hangout a marketing show and I’m interviewing today my guest Eric Enge from Stone Temple Consulting. He’s also the author of the book The Art of SEO and he’s a contributing author to Search Engine Land and also Search Engine Watch and his Stone Temple media interview series is… Has a large following among internet marketing professionals. So, with that introduction we’re gonna go ahead and get started today and Eric I just a… The format of the show is I’m gonna ask you how you got into the industry So go ahead and tell us your story about how you got on internet marketing and specifically how you got into the field you’re in right now as a Search Engine Optimization Specialist? Eric: Sure. So there’s two parts to that. I got my first exposure to the internet when I was working for a company called Phoenix Technologies and we actually had a deal with the company called Quantum Computer Services which later became America Online. To help them get distribution for their service into PC manufactures what we call the EOM Channel and my group with the company had that product line as one of its responsibilities and we drove hundreds of thousands of subscribers a year in AOL which doesn’t seem like to be a huge number these days, but at that time it was actually very very significant. But that really didn’t get me into search per se, that was just my first exposure to internet marketing. Later on I actually had a consulting business focused on actually doing business development consulting for people. And I had a friend of mine who had a job as a CEO for a company and he asked me to come in and help him with business development, it was actually a DVD E-Tailer. And I spent a couple of months trying to figure out how to put the other business deals for him. And after a while I said you know? I went back to him and said Steve! That’s his name. Steve, like you really need a search engine traffic, let’s figure out how to do that. And I began playing with that and trying to figure out how to make that work and as I Understand it… A year later we’re doing millions of dollars of revenue in the Search Engine Traffic and Sales with Search Engine Traffic and hopefully being a reasonably intelligent guy I said to myself “Hmm” this seems pretty interesting let’s do more of that!” And I actually started getting into Search Engine Optimization from then on out the more serious way and not long after that it was pretty much fault line. Sam: Okay. And what was your… Just to go back a little bit. What was your background before you got into this? Did you come from traditional marketing or you know…? What was your skill set leading into getting into Online Marketing? What prepared you for it? Eric: Yeah, originally I was actually a developer. If we get way back I also did hardware engineering for few years and then I got into software. So I was a coder and then I developed to managing people writing codes so… Technical background. And… Which is really good because in the world of SEO it’s really helpful to be able to talk with the developer and learn some coding specifics. I’m not gonna be the guy that go write the code for you now, those days are long gone, I still dab a little bit of pearl but that’s just for a little tools and some other things. But that technical background was really helpful. I actually from there evolved into a role where I was a General Management for Business Unit at Phoenix Technologies, the company I mentioned before. So I kind of got into the business and Marketing side of things. And from that I Learned what I call the thrill of the deal, getting a deal closed it’s like “Oh yeah!” you know? It’s like you get fired up you know? You pulled one in, you know? Got the fresh kill if you wanna call it that. So… ’cause a lot of people in Sales or Business think of themselves as hunters, right? You know? So it’s like trying to bring in the food Sam: Which is very comforting for your clients’ right? Eric: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. What was good about that is when you think about the world of SEO, it’s really useful to have a technical understanding and a business and marketing understanding because it stands both worlds, you know? You need to understand the reasons why Search Engines don’t inherently understand the way your site is built, just because you built it, and there are reasons for that. On the other hand you’ve got to be able to relate this into the marketing message and things you do to promote the site, you know? Which in the SEO world we typically talk about link building and some more and more of these days Social Media is part of that conversation too. But having that understanding on both sides is really cool. And last thing I’ll say about that, what I like about it is because I like being able to shift from one thing to another. One moment I’m being quite tactical and I’m learning exactly how just to throw out a random example. How, HTML 5 and CSS 3 interact to do responsive web design which is very tactical thing and then the next moment trying to think of the content marketing strategy for, you know? A major brand. So it’s kind of cool to have both those things going on. Sam: So typical Entrepreneur Personality Type where you have to be doing multiple random things that wants to be happy right? Eric: Yeah! No absolutely as I tell people who consider being entrepreneur is you know? Hey it doesn’t matter if you’re the CEO the garbage needs to be taken out, you take it out. Because that’s the choice I mean that’s the way it happens, right? So you’ve got to have the mentality for that and I definitely do. Sam: So…And that leads me to the question of ’cause one of the main topic today. I think we wanna update the listeners on, is the state of Search Engine Optimization, which is the direction that Google is taking. Not just where they are right now, but where you know? Everyone has been bitten in the last few years by the Penguin and Panda updates. So every time a new one comes out, everyone’s nervous to see what has happened to their sites. So, what I like you to do is kind of give us a broad trajectory of where you’ve seen Search Engine Optimization come and where it’s going and specifically, you know? Talk through the trend that if a listener would hear this as Search Engine Specialist, what broad rules can you follow so that Google will not end up slapping you on the next round of Penguin and Panda updates? Eric: Yeah. I think what I wanna do is I wanna start you with, you know? A common misconception because it leads to what those rules are, okay. People think that Google is making large changes to what they want publishers of websites to do. And actually there’s been very very little change in that, right? Where the real change has come is in their ability to enforce what they’ve want people to do. And there’s a very important mentality for people to get. They have always wanted a link to be a citation similar to a… just one example, to what a professor puts at the end of a research paper they’ve written. They always sight the most important documents they reference, you can’t buy that space or maybe you can but no one would ever think to buy that space, right? So it’s really that reference that professor’s paper only there because it’s the best stuff related to their paper. And that’s… Google has always wanted to link to be to be in fact the fundamental under pending of the Algorithm is around this notion of a link being citation, right? And I’m focusing on links for the moment I’m happy to add comments on site content and Panda at the moment but… so what Penguin changed is… Google’s capability to Algorithmically measure when somebody is off the peak and path or off where they want them to be. And allows them to assess ranking adjustments to people who are doing things that are, you know? Less favorable for them. Sam: And you’re talking about links right now, right? Eric: I am focusing on links. The corollary conversation for onsite content, but when we’re talking about issues with links we’re really talking about 2 types of things. What Google does, one is Penguin which you know? The Algorithmic approach and Penguin 2.0 is right around the corner, it will hit very very soon it’s gonna be a major shockwave to the market. Actually, in my opinion I actually wrote about Business Search Engine Watch about a month ago and… But the other thing that happens is they’ve also beefed up their capability to do manual review of the link profiles. And personally I believe the way they do that is they’ll have Algorithms flag questionable practices which aren’t questionable enough for them to take in Algorithmic ranking adjusted on, but their questionable enough for someone to look at and come up with an assessment. And they really beefed up that side of things as well. So what happens is people see the new Algorithm come out or they get an unnatural links message in their webmaster tools And they feel like Google has changed the rules of the game, and they really haven’t enforcement for those rules ability to act enforcement for those rules and they are only going to get better. They’re gonna get better and better at this, Penguin 2.0 I think will be a bit of a wake-up call, I think unfortunately a lot of people are gonna get hurt, some of which might be so far down the beaten path of being cheaters maybe you don’t feel so bad,but there’s gonna be alot of people you feel bad for because… Maybe they didn’t know better Not everybody is an experienced SEO, right? And they may fall into using an SEO firm that does the bad things for them and then they get slapped and that’s unfortunate. But.. you’re gonna see a lot more of Google’s ability to improve enforcement. So I’ll stop there, I’ll mention… if you want me to I can go a little bit in the Panda and I can go a little bit into none ranking penalty things the strengths too,If you’d like. Sam: That brings me to a good point as Penguin is Google’s Algorithm regarding back links. So there’s… As I understand it and correct me if I’m wrong here. There’s 2 main updates, one is Panda which deals with onsite Eric: Yes Sam:And then Penguin deals with offsite. So those are the two main ranking factors for Google, right? Eric: Well, the 2… you used the term ranking factors there’s actually hundreds of ranking factors. But in terms of new Algorithms that have really caused a large impact on the industry Penguin and Panda are it. You’re right to refer to Panda as being about on page content. .. The thing that people… Well a lot of people don’t understand how Panda works. There’s probably less known about that in the Industry than Penguin by far. And it’s a very… very few success stories. If you type in Panda recovery success story or Google Panda Recovery, you’re gonna find almost nothing, okay? And the few people who claimed they’ve had a recovery aren’t offering any proof and they aren’t discussing any of the things they did to recover. Now we’ve actually done a lot of work in this area ourselves, we haven’t published any articles on it. I will also claim at least one recovery for a site we worked on and really but… What went into what we found is that… Panda is what Google calls a document classifier, okay? And by document classifier what that means is they look at the content on page and then they make some judgements as to whether or not it’s submitting a profile that indicates that it will tend to be a lower quality page, alright? So, not much is known about how they’re profiling it. I can give you some speculation based on the people I’ve talked to and the limited experience we had with Panda Recoveries. One speculation is that… There’s a thing that I call same-ness, meaning not duplicate content which is a stolen animal, right? Same-ness to me is the concept that there’s nothing really new being discussed. So if you do a search on a given space like Mortgage Tips, I did this yesterday and in fact if you do a query in title colon and then it double quotes Mortgage Tips which basically says that, that exact phrase has to be in the title. There’s tens and thousands of pages come up… and you know? Google probably needs five, really to offer good search results. I don’t need tens of thousands. And their job is to figure out which are the best ones, and one way you could do that and again this is speculation I wanna be clear. But one way you could do that is you could do an analysis of what I call the document space, and in that analysis you could see all the different kinds of general topics that are covered by people who write about Mortgage Tips. And you’ll find different process of applying for loans, you know? How to handle inspections and you come up with a list of maybe 20 topics. And then if you look at those tens of thousands of documents you’ll find that 90% of them try to address at least 70% of topics, okay. So from a sameness principle, nothing differentiates all those tens of thousands of sites. Now there’d be a few that are much more vertically oriented. When you say mortgage tips they’re talking only about the process of applying for a loan or only about the process of home inspection whatever they get so much more vertical, so neither one of the equation. Right now I’ve got tens and thousands of documents for all I know they are writing the same crap, right? Sam:Article re-writing software in people right? Eric: Well it could be about that and it could be a genuine site but even if it’s a genuine effort. if I were to sit down and try to write that article for some sort of working on and I actually tried to write the best article possible, I really would ’cause that’s just how we do our SEO here we don’t do any of that one quality stuff but… But the problem is, okay I’m in the morass of all the other sites so now that I have identified as being in the morass, what’s my authority? Sam: Yeah! Eric: Why do you care about my opinion or the other tens of thousands, right? Eric: Now this is actually a pretty good description for what a ranking out would look like without Panda, for what I think Panda added was some different ways to evaluate whether you’re in a sort of massive, nothing special. Sam: Yeah Eric: Okay. And that’s what I think they added so they now have a much better ability to recognize that there’s nothing special about you, and you don’t have the authority to mash. So, down you go. Sam: Yeah. Eric: Right? And it’s just a ranking factor it’s important for people to know that it’s not a penalty it’s a ranking factor from their perspective. Sam: Well you know one of the things I, As I have been studying Search Engine Optimization we’re talking yesterday on our pre-call on how every marketing company has their niche. And my niche is, or my specialty as a marketer is on Funnel… Sales Funnel Development with Email Marketing. But as I have studied SEO to try and find the right people to do it, in partnership with what I do. Really, what I’ve heard is what Google wants is put yourself on someone’s shoes, they sit down in front of the computer and they’re looking for a Chinese Restaurant in Midtown Manhattan. Well if Google gives two Italian Restaurants that have 1 Chinese Menu item and an Irish pub in those results, how long do you think people are going to continue using Google? So what Google wants to do is give people what they really want and regarding Panda, I think one of things I heard on that is Google is now looking PHP how quickly people browse from your page, your bounce rate, how long people stay on the site. If people do conversions which are goals that you’re marking there. So I think there’s a lot of things that Google is doing in trying to upgrade their system to do, to just find out if people are actually getting something of the value from you. And I think the point you brought out was great, which is Google. Nothing Google’s wanted has ever changed. They always want the customer to get the exact most relevant searches as often as what they’ve typed in, but the technology that they’re using to get there is just continually getting better and it’s getting much better than any marketing company’s ability to gain the system is… because you’re not Google. No marketing company would be able to do out maneuver Google and Technology, I think that’s what you’re saying. Eric: Yes. I’m just gonna have a one point of clarification. There is definitely speculation that measurements of user engagement is a key card of Panda. I’ve participated some of that speculation, I think it’s still possible that that’s the case. But, something that I try to do when I listen to statements Google makes, is they try to treat their word choices very seriously, you know? A lot of people wanna leap to Matt Cutts… you know? Doing avert misrepresentations. And he’s … there times that he needs to be KG, I know that. But when he says something like Panda is a document classifier you need to remember that Matt’s an engineer, that phrase was chosen very very carefully. I think he can put it in the bank that Panda is a document classifier and when I think that in the supporting statements that put around that… That leads me away from engagement being measured directly. Now I’m not ready to say that it’s not involved at all, but I think in the early days of Panda, it was not directly involved. That’s just my take on it and I was influenced in this rather significantly not too long ago by an interaction I had with a guy called Michael Martinez, who shared some of his experiences. so just be aware of that i think what Google is most likely spending most of their energy doing is looking at the profile of what content looks like that is likely to lead to poor user engagement. Sam: So they haven’t gotten that as advance as some people think they are yet, but it could be common. Eric: Yeah. And there’s another way to underscore that is, so many people think that it’s about them and it’s not about them. I mean the way the process works and this is something that Google has said in public statements. And it’s basically, they identify set of problems, attest basis for things that they don’t
like the results, okay. Test basis for things they don’t like and the results, they send that to the Algorithm team and the Algorithm team tries to come up with something to address the large percentage of the problems, okay. And then they run a variety of test using radars internal radars, okay. To see how they like the results. And if the internal radars has liked the results, then they will push that out to the general… A small slice of the general market place, may be a percent of all searchers or even less than 1% of all searchers which in Google has still a boat load of people, right. And they measure interactions and they’ll make sure that it’s good. But what they’re evaluating is whether the interaction with the overall search results are how mass has improved. So they’re actually not trying to get the rating of your individual website correct, they’re not trying to figure out whether you should be site 237 or site 122 does not matters to them. What matters to them is whether the interaction with page one has significantly improved and maybe even just the first few results. That’s the goal for them. If they get those right, they pretty much done their job, whether they get numbers 7 and 8 in the right order, is it really their job? Sam: And that’s an interesting point for people to bring up or to bring up to the marketers is unless you get in the top 5 search results where people don’t have to scroll, you’re really not a player in that phrase. I mean what are the latest percentages you’ve seen in terms of engagement with different numbers on the search results? Eric: You know, there’s been a few different studies they’re all reasonably fraud for various reasons. The richest status at was the originally released by America Online many years ago. And there has been some studies since then, you know? Those studies haven’t been based on an entire Search Engine just small one like AOL. The AOL study show 42 clip result number 1 or less of that click result number 2, the slope was very steep. Other studies have shown less traffic slopes, but any study I’ve ever seen, you know? The bulk of the action is in the top 5 and off the first page, i mean basically is crickets. Sam: You might as well find a new phrase or something else to do, right? Eric: Correct, Exactly. Sam: Where you can buy Google add words, which is certainly what they want you to do.
Eric: That sounds like an excellent idea, yeah. Sam: So thank you very much for the broader review of the industry and where they’re going. So in the future we can expect Google to just get better and better. And whether or not some of the points I brought up that are speculation on Panda have happened yet, eventually things like that could happen. So, the main point here that I’m hearing from you is, just think of your ideal customer and give them something that’s more interest than anyone else, and find ways to get it out there and if people like it and share it and tweet it, then Google’s gonna help you out, right? in principle it should work that way Eric: In principle, it should work that way, alright.The frustrating part of it is that Google’s Algorithms are…their Algorithm right? And, at the high level you’re right. You have to start with users being the first objective and offer a superior experience of all and that there’s really…in my opinion, no other choice and I do know other people who think differently. But honestly that’s the way we focus our efforts for… 7 8 years.. then… it works. I mean you can think of it as learning what the Search Engines want you to do, not to just focus on users. There are some refinements as statement which I’ll get to, and then do what they want you to do exceedingly well, do it better than the other guy and execute extremely well and you should be fine. I do wanna note that there are still limits in the Search Engine’s ability to process your site. So for example, while there’s plenty of technology for reading and figuring out what’s an images out there, it’s not practical for Google to use that in a real time basis on their Algorithm. So they don’t do that as an integrated part of the main Web Search Engine. It’s not practical for them to process a video and understand all the content. Again technology exists where they could do that with a certain degree of accuracy Google has that technology. But it’s not something that’s integrated into the main web search, if they need help with side architecture, you need to pick title tags carefully so that they can understand what a page is about, the content text base content on the page to help them understand. So there are still things you need to do to be Search Engine aware, but even as you do those things you have to have the user as your first objective. So that’s the refinement I put to the statement. Sam: Okay. So that’s the broad view for everyone on where Search Engine Optimization has been and where it’s going. I think the way you broke it down for us is really useful which is, Google has never changed their objective, they’re just getting better and enforcing it and if people could always understand that Google has the user… ’cause if Google becomes the, you know? Or some other Search Engine comes in and becomes the default search browser of choice for people then Google is out of business. They could care less about businesses that are just trying to gain the search results and anyone who gained it and got slapped you have, you really have no right to be mad at Google because if you weren’t focusing on the customer, then you just weren’t doing the right thing anyway. Eric: Yes! Sam: So I think that’s a fantastic way for us to think about it. Now we are zooming down in a strategic level to the tactical level. What is the latest update that you wrote about on Search Engine Watch that everyone needs to be aware of regarding the Penguin updates? Eric: I wrote an article called Penguin 2.0 for warning And I shared my thoughts on uh… and i share my thoughts on the
path link building and this is led to us to define the concept we call the 5 judgements of link quality. It’s really important to understand you know? What really does define a quality link and how you can come to your own appreciation of that? So let’s see if I remember them all and by the way this article I wrote was tweeted by Matt Cutts with the no good article by Eric Enge. But in any case the first one is, would you have obtained this link if Google and Bing did not exist? And that’s a really good one because that really helps people think about what the perspective is. have trouble getting their arms around that because A lot of people it’s hard for them to say they do exist. So the next one is If you have just a couple of minutes with a prospective customer and you are legally required to show them a random samplings of links from your link profile, what are your chances on getting embarrassed by the link? . Right? And there’s a corollary to that which I call, would you show it to your children? Sam: Or your mom right? Eric: Exactly! .. So those 3 of what I call the 3 of what I call the uh… judgements. Okay now I’m challenged here I’ve got to remember the other 2. Was it really intended as a genuine endorsement by the person giving the link? I mean did they knowingly say I’m linking to this because it’s a really great resource for my users, right? And then the final one, which is one of my favorites. If you have to make an argument that is a good link, it’s not! Sam: If you have…in the position. Eric: Yeah. The point being is no justification is required for a really legitimate good link. yet to meet you know musical you know
that I mean you know? You say okay, you know? Walt Mossberg decided to write about you on Wall Street Journal and he linked to your site because he thought it was the best you know? Blah BlahBlah
Whatever your business is out there. and And that’s pretty high standard, but if you can pass those 5 tests then you’re in a pretty good shape. Sam: Which is why, if you do get a link in Wall Street Journal and New York Times which has good editorial control and Google trust them. And that link is worth more than a thousand of other links, for example. Eric: Yeah. Actually Sam: Alright, So finally we kind of start off with your background and then we looked at the broader view of SEO. Now we’re just zooming down into the latest Google updates, part of the show I would like to do for every specialists is… Because Google Hangout which is a new technology which by the way we have to have another Google hang out discussing just the impact of Google Hangouts on search results and YouTube results but what the Google Hangout allows us to do is to screen share. Eric: Yep Sam: And what I would like to do as I gave you this link yesterday and I have a client and we have a page that…It really is designed for the user is getting a good, good hop in rate including engagement rate from those who come to it from page traffic. But it’s a new page and just get some advice from you looking at it on how to make it better, because we haven’t really… I don’t think, my team has gone and done dedicated on page work on this. So I’m gonna do a quick screen share and I just like you to talk me through what you see and you know? I’m gonna use WordPress because that’s probably the most common platform out there. But anyone who has Joomla or any other site with a content management system to be able to do similar things following along here. Eric: Yeah Sam: Let me pull that up. okay by his training you know Eric: we’re doing smart triathlon training… How to set a PR while training 30% less. Well this sounds like a good advice actually not almost a good advice but it sounds like a very interesting topic. Okay so keep scrolling down if you will. Okay so there’s an interview. Okay go back up to the top I’m gonna have you move around a little just so I can get the feeling for the page I didn’tlook at this a little bit before but… Okay great and then scroll down slowly again,let’s get a sense for the whole page. Sam: One thing we did, was we did a transcript, this is a Google hangout it’s about an hour long. We did a transcript to the entire interview because of what you said which is Google doesn’t have the ability to use videos yet. Eric: Yep. Sam: In their search results so we helped them out by putting the transcript which is done by human here. It goes all the way down. Eric: Yeah. Okay so nothing really changes to the footer of the margin, so why don’t you jump on to the footer so we can… Okay andit’s just a typical type of footer with a few advertisers and a few links and then a little bit of text here about Tridot, with a few anchor text reaching links to other places on the site. Okay why don’t we go all the way back up to the top and we can start talking a little bit about this. so First of all, it’s nice for there’s a video, one question I would ask is where the video is hosted? If it’s hosted in YouTube I think that’s a good thing personally. YouTube is some people say the 2nd largest Search Engine in the web. I actually think that’s based on data before being and Yahoo did their… their deal. So I’m not sure they’re still are, it doesn’t matter they have tremendous amount of search volume and in a market like, you know? Triathlon training I’m gonna imagine there’s a fair amount of people searching related content on YouTube. Sothat’s an opportunity for the website which they might wanna think about. The key, and I won’t go any too much depth about it. One of the big keys to succeeding in ranking in YouTube is driving lots of views to your video. uh… stolen to walk to needs to do that by…one allowing people to find the video on YouTube in the first place, but also continuing to have it on your site potentially letting other people publish on their sites. I think would be good. So I think that’s a good opportunity, the fact that you’ve transcribe this thing is really good, that gives a lot of text filter for the Search Engine. I’m gonna guess that this is a couple of thousand words, you might consider breaking down into multiple pages. Sam: Yeah. Eric: I’m thinking about that more as user experience issue. Sam: Yeah. You just break it down into next maybe 1 or 5 something like that. Eric: Right. And if you do that you’d use Rel, Prev, Next. Sam: Okay. Eric: For the various pages you have to look that up online rather than have me detail it right now. But your search for Rel, Prev, next you know? And you will find good documentation on how to do that. So I would consider doing that. I don’t know if that’s so much directly an SEO issue as it is user experience issue, and you know at some level I think the user experience is useful from an SEO perspective. The other thing is the title for the post was Smart Triathlon training. Sam: Yep. Eric: I don’t know if anybody did any keyword research to whether that’s the right phrase. And you can use a keyword research tool, like the Google Ad words Keyword Tool to potentially consider another phrase. I haven’t tried looking at alternate phrase for you, but that is something you could consider… By the way, you don’t have to change the title of the article there are plugins for WordPress that allow you to set a separate title tag for the webpage which is different from the title of the article, right? Sam: And what plugin do you recommend? I know there’s a number of them .Which one…I’m just looking at my WordPress and we don’t have a plugin installed. Which one do you recommend for WordPress? Eric:Yoast make some good ones, I’m sorry I don’t remember the name of it but J-o-o-s-t you can search on his plugins. There’s one called the All in one SEO Pack that both do a pretty good job. So yeah there’s Clicky by Yoast. Eric:Wordpress SEO by Yoast, there you go. That’s one of them yes! Sam: Okay Eric: So, that’s an example of one that people could consider that will allow them to do a separate title tag. That’s kind of the on page kind of stuff. There wasn’t a lot of fraught from this page which is good I mean you know? The other thing that I want to look at is the matter description tag for the webpage Sam: Hold that up right now. Do we have one there? Because I don’t think we did one. Yeah. Eric: Yeah. It’s really good to write one. Basically what you wanna do with that matter description is if you can… It’s an opportunity to get the user to understand what they get by visiting this particular article page. This looks like a fairly generic… yeah there you go… fairly generic description. I think you wanna really say you know? Something like Jeff Booher is an expert Triathlon and Coach who gives his best tips on how to improve your time… I’m talking about the matter description now, rather than… yeah something like that. So these are the opportunities to play with that. Sam: Yeah and I’ll just finish, finish typing this triathlon coach Jeff Booher discusses… top Triathlon Training Eric: Yeah, or expert tips for getting more out of your Triathlon training. So it doesn’t just repeat what’s in the title tag. Sam: Engage and they actually wanna click on this article and then you just put…. on their blogs. Which is really gonna hurt their SEO ranking for the people who do take the time to do it. Eric: That’s right. Sam: Okay I updated that page but it really is that easy for people who has a content management system such as WordPress and I think that… Let me just take you off screen share here. And Eric thank you so much for that…Not only your broad overall view of SEO but that practical demonstration. I think a lot of times people read articles and hear things but don’t know how to take actions. So just those tips on how to revise the title tag and activate a plugin like Yoast is great. So I thank you, I’m sorry we don’t have a little bit more time but we certainly, just leaves us more to talk about next time ’cause I’d love to have you back on the show here. Eric: Sure, My pleasure and I was gonna say thank you I appreciate you having me on. I don’t know if I’m the inaugural show but I’mone of the early ones. So, look forward to doing more. Sam: And Eric where can we find more information about you? Eric: At stonetemple.com Sam: And you also have a book out called The Art of SEO Eric: Yeah, that’s right. Sam: And you can also gonna find him on Search Engine Watch. Just go Google his name in Search Engine Watch, in fact in Google you come up first in Search Engine Watch, not on stone temple, so… Eric:Ah Interesting! Sam: You’re doing a goodjob of getting your name out. Eric: Yeah, I think we’ve had some articles this year I’ve done quite well so that’s probably help for that. Sam: Excellent! Eric: Well thanks Sam, I appreciate and I look forward to do the next one. Sam: Thanks a lot Eric! And And Thanks for joining us everyone for the first edition of Search Engine Watch in Google Hangout on the marketing show. I’ll be back next week with another episode.