OL013: Taking A Look At How Melbourne SEO Services Outsources With Dave Jenyns

By | August 13, 2019


Inside the thirteenth episode of Outsourcing
Live, I interview an Australian entrepreneur who successfully creates systems and outsources
and loves his client work for his SEO company. You’ll learn how he hires people for his business
through his very smart and effective interview process. Also, inside the quick tip, I share
with you my number one keyword research tool that save me a lot of time and help me find
dozens of niches. Time to play it! VO: Welcome to the Outsourcing Live podcast
where you will learn to build a virtual team to run your business. And now, your host,
Tyrone Shum. Tyrone: Hey everyone, it’s Tyrone Shum from Outsourcing
Live and welcome to another podcast today. I’ve got a special guest down from Melbourne
today and he’s someone who I’ve been keeping in contact very, very closely and he’s got
something very, very interesting to share with you. He’s actually got SEO services business
down in Melbourne and I want to actually get him on the call because what he does is that
he services not only provides very, very hands-on services to the clients but he also outsources
a lot of the work there to be able to generate quite a bit of business for him too. So let
me introduce you to David Jenyns. Welcome to the call David. David: Hey Tyrone, thanks for the invite. I’m looking
forward to it. Tyrone: Great. Well David, just to start, before we
do start into it, I know a lot of people probably know you through a lot of other blogs and
also a lot of networks as well but for the people who don’t know you, share a little
bit more about what you currently do and your story as well. David: Yeah well at the moment, we’ve got a – a business
here in Melbourne. It mainly focuses on Melbourne-based businesses basically helping them to get found
online. Initially, it started off with really focusing on SEO because the company you can
hear it in the nine, it’s called Melbourne SEO Services and that’s where we started.
But, it’s definitely evolved much more than that and it really is about just getting small
and medium sized businesses found online. And we start off usually I think SEO’s a little
bit of a gateway for us – to get out in the door, get clients, good runs, but then we
branched out into a whole lot of things, video marketing. We also do – like a little bit
with the outsourcing as well helping them sort of get setup, get their feet wet. You
know a little bit of publicity with press releases and things like that so it’s a whole
lot of different things that we do do with the clients. For me though, that business is kind of came
out of a – other our old business which was used to be our core business which was in
the stock market nation we have quite a few information product in the stock market nation
and we’re doing a lot of SEO, making our websites come online and we had people sort of ask
us how we were doing what we were doing and then that one thing led to another and why
not offer this service. That’s how Melbour SEO Services got started and we just sort
of now, for me, it’s – it is the core I suppose cashflow drive our core part of the business
that generates the cashflow, pays for the turning – the overhead expenses of the office
and you know, all of that type of stuff gets covered by Melbourne SEO Services and then
it relieves a lot of space over and above that. I mean the clients in that paying for
50% or thereabouts of my team’s time, that leaves the other 50% where we end up working
on our own projects – you know, keep building our portfolio sites, and the information product
in the stock market nation is a few other projects that we were working on. So it’s
really just Melbourne SEO Services provides that cashflow. I think that’s where a lot
of entrepreneurs got wrong when they first get started building their own online business.
They don’t necessarily start on the cashflow first. Tyrone: Hmm. David: And you need to, that’s where everything starts.
Start on cashflow first. Make sure you get some good regular income and then you can
look to reinvest that back into building at your assets. Tyrone: Absolutely. And how long has Melbourne SEO
Services has been running for now? Since we last spoke actually I’m trying to think. David: Yeah, yeah. It would be about 18 months now.
So it’s a relatively company. 18 months to yeah – Tyrone: Yeah. David: 18 months maybe close to two years now and
it’s just sort of gone quite quickly now. We’ve sort of formalized quite a lot of our
systems now. I know when were first starting out, we had the core processes of the SEO
very much sortified because we tested that in some other niches but now the actual systems
within the business is as far the way that we handle clients and follow up with them
and give reports and that type of thing. Tyrone: Hmm, which is really, really amazing. I mean
for a short period of time, for 18 months usually that’s really the test phase of seeing
the business can survive and whether or not it’ll continue to grow or keep going or if
not. You know, close out and move to other direction. David: I think it got a little bit support with my
previous business as well because this was sort of my second go and we’ve built the previous
business this time around, brought a lot of knowledge with this pre-plan, what it was
that we’re going to build out first. And we still have a lot of cashflow coming in from
– the stock market education business so that initial phase, because you’re right, a lot
of business when they first start out they figure out is this going to work, or we’re
going to be able to scale this – I was fortunate I had these other businesses that helped funded
it just through that initial setup where I’ve sort of take on a life of its own. Tyrone: Which is awesome you know, that’s really great
to hear. And I guess the main reason why I got you onto the call today is to ask you
a little bit more about outsouricng but I sort of wanted to at the same time provide
some kind of value about – SEO because I wanted to also ask you a little bit more about that
side of things and or tie into talking a little bit more about outsourcing, how you’ve done
that with your business as well. So for people who don’t understand what is
SEO actually, let’s talk a little bit more about that first before we jump into delving
into more details about how your systems and a lot of business works. David: Yep so I mean it’s just the basics on how
SEO works? Or what SEO is? Or – Tyrone: Yeah what SEO is because I don’t think everyone
really understands the whole principles behind it and how it can be effective for their business
as well. David: Yeah. Well, it just stands for Search Engine
Optimization and it just means optimizing your website for the search engines to make
sure that when someone searches for a phrase looking for your business, that your website
comes up online and there is the whole art and science to it, it’s definitely evolved
quite a lot over last years. And I think, a lot more businesses start to wake up in
this idea that they need to be coming up to Google and preferably in position number one
or number two because most people don’t really look much further down the page. Tyrone: Hmm. David: They understand that people are going there,
they’re not using yellow pages anymore to find products and services and by using search
engine optimization, you just position everything correctly to make sure that you’re coming
up for the right phrases. Now, it sounds easy but it mostly definitely is that it really
depends a lot to do with the niche that you’re going after. The basics of it though, search engine optimization
is so much like the way the web works. It’s one big popularity contest and the more popular
sites tend to do better. And for example, the way that I like to think about it, let’s
say we say from a popularity point of view, if I’m saying look, I’m the greatest person
in the world you know, I’m also – I’m awesome. That – doesn’t look – that almost looks a
little bit of too much – yeah also how great I am. What makes me cool and popular is when
other people start to say I’m cool and popular and certain people’s like opinions in holding
more way than others. So let’s say if a Brad Pitt says hey Dave’s cool because he’s got
lots of other people saying that he’s cool, now his opinion and his voice holds a lot
more when he says that I’m cool. So that end of the game where we bring that
back to search engines, we just want to get a whole lot of people saying that our website
is cool and we want to get – preferably you want the more popular websites saying we’re
cool and the way that you do that is almost like the online version saying that we’re
cool is just a link back to our website. So it’s just one big popularity contest, we’re
trying to collect whole lot of links back to your website so you become popular and
we want to try to make that look as natural as possible. Tyrone: Yes. David: Obviously Google doesn’t want anyone to be
gaining the search engines so we just make sure that as we build backlinks, we build
them from a good variety of different sources back to our website that helps us move up
to search engine rankings. Tyrone: Okay so basically I guess for people who are
just trying to understand what search engine optimization is, if you’ve got a website out
there and you want to move it up and become popular to be known in the search engines,
it’s all about building good backlinks back to your website and becoming more popular
in the market. So getting known at there, really getting out to like social media networks,
article directories and all those kind of things. Is that pretty much a summary of what we could
say? David: Yeah, yeah. And popularity like I mean getting
it like you said from some of those variety of different sources, there’s a whole host
of different things in the SEO toolbox that they can use for building these backlinks.
And that’s what a search engine optimization company does. They identify what keywords
would that business or that website like to rank for. Once they know that, then they go
out, after they make sure that they keyword is placed strategically throughout the website,
once they’ve done that then they go and build backlinks from all over the web back to the
site for those keywords that you’re trying to come up for. Tyrone: Yeah. David: And it really is a bit of a process and I
think that’s why it sort of leans itself so well to outsourcing and creating a system
to know what it is that you’re looking to do. And then making sure that you’ve got a
team to continually do it. And then sometimes when clients first come to us, they haven’t
quite get their head around the way our SEO works and then might just think it’s a one-time
heat. They just think oh, SEO my site then it’s over and done about it have to think
about it again. But your competition is out there as well
and there’s plenty of other people building links and becoming more popular so it’s and
it’s constantly evolving game. We want to make sure that we’re constanly SEO-ing our
site and when we start, first started doing it on our own websites we realized how much
work it actually does take. Like I mean to keep building these links especially in some
very competitive spaces like in the stock market niche, they’re hyper competitive so
you just need to keep building links and that’s when we started to build these systems very
step by step process that could then get passed out to team members and have them execute
that process. Tyrone: Yup and you guys are pretty much at a strategy
level like for yourself you do the strategy level and then your team pretty just follow
through the procedures to be able to put these systems or implement these systems while you’re
putting out the ideas and concepts to get them done. – David: Yeah. Tyrone: Yeah. David: So with a – like I mean, I’ll chat with some
of the higher end clients that we end up working with and just to get really clear on who their
target market is so we can get in the mind of their searches so we can really think about
what keywords are we going to be targetting and then we really plan out that – high-level
keyword strategy and then the team from there sort of takes over and starts to assign keywords
to different pages and then they optimize those pages for those keywords and then once
that’s all done then that kind of, it almost goes down – a process – Tyrone: A process yeah. David: Yeah we have a thing we call the article distribution
procedure which basically is depending on what package or how competitive the client’s
space is – we’ll determine how many articles they get that goes through this procedure
but basically we get someone to write an article, it’ll get submitted to – starts off at Ezinearticles,
and goes through some other article directories and get rewritten a couple of times and gets
put into some different blog networks and these are just different methods for building
backlinks but it’s just that real step by step process that’s – it’s almost like – you
know, a real system where once these steps done, and almost gets passed to the next person
and it gets passed to the next person. Just almost like a conveyabull. Tyrone: Yes. David: Production line just something that keeps
moving down the line and that’s sort of – that’s good because then it freeze me up and then
you know, I can start to be working with the clients and building those relationships and
you know, working on our own projects as well. Tyrone: Hey that’s awesome. Actually before we move
on to outsourcing because I’m really curious we’re talking about production line and so
forth, for people wanting to know what actually makes your service different because I know
there’s a lot of SEO servicing companies out there particularly in Australia I know there’s
a few already here in Sydney that are doing pretty large as well. What makes your company
different to them and why is it that you provide these services as well? David: Yeah I think for us, the biggest thing that
we bring to the table really is the whole online marketing understanding. It’s not just
about SEO for us. Sometimes, like we basically can look at business and see what’s the best
return of investment is for their time and efforts. Sometimes, building more backlinks
isn’t answer. Sometimes, it’s increasing the conversion rate you know going from – a 1%
conversion to a 2% conversion rate with some minor changes we’ll significantly impact their
bottomline with a lot less work. Tyrone: Hmm. David: So I suppose we’re a little bit more strategic
and helping them understand about building their mailing list and continuing ongoing
marketing and I think just recently one of our biggest skill sets that we’re getting
a lot of work coming through is with video. We do a lot of stuff in Youtube, and not just
even creating the video because we come from this SEO background, we’re also very good
at – SEO-ing videos. Getting the videos to come up when people are searching for them
and we’re finding there’s a big pocket there of people who just understand or no one’s
really servicing that space yet. Tyrone: Yeah. David: So us. And you know our real strategic advantage
is we only work with a handful of clients where we’re not trying to do SEO by volume
here because we’re really – our end gameplan isn’t building up a massive SEO company. The
only reason we build up the SEO company with only a handful of clients at any one time
is so that it funds that overhead and expense of operating the business and then that gets
reinvested back. I think that’s the big difference between a lot of what we do. We’ve got our business in multiple different
niches and some very competitive niches as well. And like we got rock and roll music
store, as well where we sell the ACDC t-shirts and Metallica t-shirts – Tyrone: Cool. David: That’s like a whole separate e-commerce business
and we work on our own sites, so I think we understand online business at a very different
level to most SEO companies. Tyrone: Yeah absolutely I mean and that’s the great
thing because you’ve already touched on points like you only focus on only a handful of clients
which means that they get a lot more attention and therefore, you know by doing that, you’re
going to be able to provide a better service for them and on top of that being able to
get them the best possible result because you’re being strategic about it and also too,
your focus is just on them rather than have hundreds of clients which I know a lot of
SEO companies out there. David: It’s very – taxing as well like I mean to
have that many clients as well, sometimes you just don’t end up doing a very good job
for any of them because you just you got too much on the go and clients can be quite demanding
at times. So I mean that’s a decision of ours early on that we thought we don’t want to
get into that space because I don’t want to – you know spend my days building someone
else’s business especially it was a lot of the IP that we do have now, really we’re going
to best bang for buck and reinvesting it back to our own businesses. Tyrone: Absolutely, that’s awesome. All right let’s
change gears back to outsourcing. It’s really good to talk about SEO because it’s something
I’m really passionate about as well but obviously we can do only so much ourselves with SEO.
You know you can sit there and spend hours and hours and optimize your site, build these
backlinks and stuff but you won’t get very far if you keep doing it yourself and that’s
the reason why I wanted to get you on the call today to talk about how you’ve been able
to scale all of this production and leverage your time. So I guess the question I want to post to
you is firstly where did you first start on outsourcing the SEO services for these clients
like you obviously couldn’t have just went okay I’m just going to outsource it and that’s
it. You’ve got a – there’s a process right that you looked into. People want to know
how did you go about that process onto outsourcing I mean yeah. David: We started off doing out-tasking and hiring
people through Rentacoder at the time which now changed to VWorker – Tyrone: Oh yes. David: And you know some of my initial first assistants
that came through. I can give one, she still works with me today. When she came on board,
she started working doing my customer support and that was back from the stock market business
but that kind of evolved from there. We kind of built up our relationship and we started
to you know, whenever I had little jobs I’d pass them her way and she followed through
with them. From there, we kind of evolved I supposed and started doing a little bit
more outsourcing where we – once we started to outsource, we even looked for some other
providers and things like that where – things like need an article, and services from an
SEO point of view that focused on a specific role. So I mean a big part of SEO is this
link building process and very easy way to do that is article writing and submission.
So using an article was quite a good outsourcing solution for us and that original team member
of mine she would you know, tell what articles we want, she’d manage the process, get the
articles back and then take it through. And now I supposed we’ve evolved again and
we sort of started doing a little bit more of in-sourcing and this idea of building up
our own virtual team but having them on the payroll all around the world. And I suppose
that’s just a little bit a definitional distinction there. The difference between in-sourcing
and outsourcing. And I say outsourcing as you know, usually hiring of independent contractors
who almost like run their own little business and often times they’re a specialist that
particular or role or project they’re taking on versus in-sourcing which is about you know,
still hiring a virtual team but then bringing them on board and then sort of skilling them
up over time. So that’s kind of like where we’ve evolved to now where we hire people
that can become part of the team and then go through our training process and you know
take on tasks from there. Tyrone: It’s interesting that you’re talking about
the differences between outsourcing and in-sourcing. I should actually call this whole blog in-sourcing
because that’s what I actually do and teach. But no, it’s so true because I think once
you’ve got your virtual team on board and you’ve trained them all that then really they
become in-house because all my team my virtual team is pretty much dedicated full time within
my business but I still consider them as being in-sourcing if you want to put it that way.
Because of that fact is that you’re able to train them up, and they retain these skills
and they’re dedicated to your business, manage your business and run your business for you,
that’s the power and the leverage that you’re able to see happen from that side of things. Ah what I want to also find out as well too
David is when you first started to find these people, did you have any specific place that
you would go out and find these people because a lot of people struggle with that, you know
they don’t know where to go. They jump over to eLance, oDesk, and just as you mentioned
Rentacoder which is now called VWorker. Like how did you go about finding these people
at first? David: Yeah. We’ve tried quite a few different methods.
I think one of the easiest is for someone to go ahead and check out a VWorker, eLance
and something like that, that way they don’t have to necessarily make a commitment. Often
times, when you do some in-sourcing and you hire people, you bring them on board, these
people are relying on you. You’re paying for their mortgage, you’re paying for their kid’s
education, putting food on the table, that type of thing. That’s something I think we
definitely want to take very seriously and make sure when you do bring them on board,
if they’re going to make that commitment to them, you really need to uphold your end of
the bargain. Now I’m not suggesting that if someone doesn’t work out, that you dont’ get
rid of them quite quickly, hire, slowly fire quickly that’s a very good method to have.
But I think for someone just starting out, it’s a good idea just think about some one-off
tasks these out-tasking and go to Rentacoder and VWorker. If you think you’ve got a bigger
project coming out, break a small piece of that project to part, list it on your VWorker. Perhaps select three different people to do
the job like each one of them do a little bit of that job and you can very quickly tell
who’s doing a great job and you might award the rest of the project to that person. Cost
a little bit more upfront, only a various small extra amount but the benefit being you
end up working with A-players. And working with an A-player is just an absolute dream
when you – actually compare that to working to B or C-player or even worse a D-player.
When you work with a team member who is a D-player and I think you know what I mean
by that – those ratings. An A-player is just someone, if you give it
– give them a task, even you don’t have to explain everything down to the minute detail,
they just figure stuff out, they work it out, they’ve got a good work ethic, they’re honest,
they’re the people that you want to be working with. So I think start off by finding you
know just some good people that you enjoy working with doing some one-off tasks. Sort
of slowly build it up, give them a little bit more work when you’ve got it, build up
that rapport, get comfortable with the whole process because it’s quite – when you’re leaning
a few little hurdles that you have to overcome, you know you’re wondering I actually am going
to be doing the work you know. I’m not sitting with them 24/7 so how do you know that they
are sitting there and say it takes 4 times as long as it does. And you know there’s a
whole host of other questions that come along with that as well like how do I pay them,
what should I pay them. I think that’s why I’m going through some of those services are
great way to start. They sort of have a lot of processes and it’s very easy for you to
get started once you find someone though, then you might ask them look usually what
we did is we’d work with them and I do like 4 or 5 jobs with them on that particular service
and then I contact them through – their Skype or their email and basically say hey look
we’ve worked up a little bit of a relationship here now, if you’re interested I’d like to
provide you some ongoing work and maybe we’ll work off the – or I might just do direct deposit
straight to your Paypal account and we can both share in the savings or even you’ll just
paid a little bit more because now, VWorker doesn’t take any slice out. Start with that and then you can sort of move
on from there you know whether or not you want to put them on a part time capacity or
a full time capacity. That’s the way that we got started. Things are little bit different
now. Now, we use Jobstreet which is like the equivalent of Seek.com.au here in Australia Tyrone: Nice. David: Or most of over in the States. So we ran a
job ad and we take them through a very systematic hiring process where you know, we ran an ad,
we direct them through a survey, they fill out a survey. From the survey we pick the
ones that we like and we get them to complete these small tasks, once they completed the
small tasks then we get them to send in their resume. And then once they send in the resume,
we screen it down to three or four applicants and then we get into a top grading bread-smart
style interview process. I mean that’s a very evolved system that we
started. Tyrone: Yeah. Actually can I ask you why the resume
after or the survey and the task? Why not before? That’s very interesting, it’s a different
way of looking at it or methodology. David: We were finding, we were spending a hell of
a lot of time sifting through surveys – or sifting through resumes and cover letters.
I used to get my mom to do it. She’d come in and I’ve given her set criteria and she’d
filter them out based on that criteria and when I realized, hang on we’re spending so
much time here, is there anything that we can do to reduce our amount of work. So it’s
almost like I’m putting it back to – Tyrone: Yeah, yeah. David: It’s a lot more until the point of which they’ve
proved themselves and then we’re looking into it. So you know, we did change it. We tried
another way but we just found we were spending a lot of time sifting through resumes. Tyrone: I have to say that’s a very smart idea. Then
it really it comes back down to seeing who are really the genuine ones and who really
wants to actually wants to get the job because a lot of them send their resumes through and
then you contact them then you might not hear back from them. And you’re going why the heck
would they send their resume and they wouldn’t even get interested with the job? Whereas
it is when they filled in the survey and also completed the task, it means they are really
serious and they’re hoping that they’ll get this job. So it’s really good that you’ve
switched that way. I think that’s an excellent idea. Haha. David: And then from there like I mean there’s a
couple of other methods that we’ve tried. If you’re looking for a particular type of
task like I mean we were having some trouble for a long time trying to find a copywriter,
a very high end writer who could write on our blog and we’re comfortable having them
posted directly on our blog. Which is obviously important to our brand – Tyrone: Of course. David: And we – we went to a forum. We went to Warrior
Forum and we looked for people who are writing articles and we picked out two writers who
were now working with us on a regular basis and we just gave them some – started off given
them little tasks, they’ve proved themselves and we opt it then on an hourly rate we pay
them on a per job basis. That was another way. And then the final one which I haven’t
used myself but I’ll mention it because – Pete Williams, a good friend of mine recommended
it. Tyrone: Is it – David: How do you – Tyrone: Preneur.com was that? David: Yeah Preneurmarketer short for entrepreneur.
This one is an Australian-based website where they actually do all the screening for you.
I have not used them but Pete speaks really hardly. You pay a little bit more as they’ve
done the screening but they have a lot of management. It’s RemoteStaff.com.au. Tyrone: Ah I have – actually I spoke to
the owner there. He contacted me and he was
saying would you be interested in doing something together. I said hell yeah, sure thing. I’m
going to catch up to him actually. David: Here you go it’s Peter Approved. Tyrone: Pete Approved. That sounds good. Well Remote
Staff is a good company as well and they’ve got a lot of scale because from what I remember
when he had told me, he’s got a big office in there, he’s got plenty of staff there to
be able to help them find all that so yeah there’s plenty of opportunity for finding
good people through that company which is good because you got a local company helping
with a remote or Filipino-based office. So it’s good. David: Yeah, yeah.

One thought on “OL013: Taking A Look At How Melbourne SEO Services Outsources With Dave Jenyns

  1. Dima Marian Ion Post author

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